Sara Emmerson: Well, welcome back to That Sounds Risky, the podcast where we explore the bold decisions, courageous moments, and unexpected twists that shape extraordinary lives. Today, I'm thrilled to welcome someone who has spent her career helping people step into their potential with courage and confidence. If you don't know, my name is Sara Emmerson and I am the host of That Sounds Risky. And today I am so thrilled to have our guest, Amy Donovan. Amy is a master certified coach, the highest credential awarded by the International Coaching Federation. And she has been coaching leaders and developing coaches for more than 25 years. She's the co-founder of Prime Coaching Academy and has helped train thousands of coaches and leaders around the world. Amy is also the co-author of Who's the Boss? Confront the Elephant in the Room, a book focused on helping leaders navigate difficult conversations and create healthier workplaces. And what I admire about Amy most isn't that she just loves coaching. I do admire that. And she models courage. I admire that also, but it's because she's invested her life in helping people ask better questions, lead with authenticity, and make decisions that align with who they truly want to become. And most of all, I admire Amy because Amy's my coach. For those of you that don't know that, um, I have a coach and I will always have one. And Amy is that coach who's helped me over the last 6 years. I can't even believe that it's been that long. But over the last 6 years, Amy and I have been working together and she has seen me transition from, uh, different careers to, um, creating, uh, my business to continuing to build into the next version of who I am and even into starting this podcast. So I am so honored today to have Amy with us. Amy, thank you for being here.

Amy Donovan: Thanks for having me, Sarah. And I've also watched you turn into a magnificent coach yourself. So that's— I've had a front row seat to that.

Sara Emmerson: You have a front row seat to all of the triumphs and trials. So I appreciate it. Um, and tears. Some people, uh, get on these coaching conversations with me and they're like, I'm so sorry, I'm crying. And I'm like, what are you talking about? I cried for years, every coaching conversation I had. So, um, I'm just honored.

Amy Donovan: Not everyone, not every coaching conversation.

Sara Emmerson: Not everyone, but a good amount. But, um, I'm so, so honored to have you, uh, with us today. So Amy, as we start here, um, I would love for you just to tell everyone, when you hear the phrase, That Sounds Risky, what comes to mind?

Amy Donovan: What comes to mind for me is what almost every client I've ever coached says to themselves before they're ready to step into their next iteration of their lives, careers, whatever it is. This is the little story we tell ourselves before we're ready to emerge into what's more authentic for us, what's more aligned with our reality.

Sara Emmerson: Absolutely. I know for me, that's the thing that always stands out to me is that's the little voice in our head. And it's the moment that we get to choose. It's like that crossroads.

Amy Donovan: Yep.

Sara Emmerson: That we get to choose. Um, and which way am I gonna go? Am I gonna take the risk and see what's possible? Or am I gonna stay where I am? And neither are wrong. There's, there's opportunity for in both. Um, but it's definitely that crossroads. And so I, I agree. So was there ever a moment in your life when someone looked at your decisions and said, or at least probably thought, ooh, Amy, That Sounds Risky?

Amy Donovan: Yeah, probably every decision I've ever made. Um, yes, many times. Yeah.

Sara Emmerson: And with that, when you did that and you thought that, what was probably the first thing that came to mind?

Amy Donovan: Yeah, the first thing when people say that or they kind of exude that energy towards me is always, oh, am I making the right decision? decision, right? So that split second of self-doubt. And, um, you know, I'll just give you a quick example. When I decided to become a coach, this was in the early 1990s. Like, that's how long I've been doing this. Um, and nobody knew what coaching was. I mean, I was one of the first 150 coaches in, in the world, literally, and in North America. So When I started telling people this is what I wanted to do, what I first did was select people that I thought would really support me. And what I got instead were people who were afraid for me. And because I was leaving a lucrative business that I was a partner in, a corporate communications business, I was just in my early 30s. I was doing really well. And it was kind of like, what? You're gonna what? Yeah.

Sara Emmerson: Collaborate? What is that?

Amy Donovan: Yeah. And what is this thing? And then, of course, you know, if you've ever tried to explain what coaching is to people and really capture the full depth of it, you just sound like a, you know, a nutcase. So, um, essentially what I had was a lot of people who were afraid for me. And so what I found myself doing was managing everybody else's fear. And then trying not to add to my own. Yeah.

Sara Emmerson: And it's hard to not allow other people's fear to become our own.

Amy Donovan: It's very hard. You know, this is one of the beauties of coaching, because we remain as objective as possible in coaching. We're trained to do that. When you bring things that are risky to people who care and love you, you know, care for and love you, there's a lot at stake there, right? It's— they care for you, they want the best for you. It may impact them as well. And so you're going to get a very subjective reflection about the risk you're wanting to take and get support in. Yeah.

Sara Emmerson: How do you navigate that as someone who's transitioning their career or Thinking about going into coaching. In those moments, how do you separate the others' biases and continue to take those risks yourself?

Amy Donovan: Yeah, I think that it's— what's difficult for people, I have found over the years, is sorting out what's truth and what's noise in my own head. Right? What's the truth here? How much of a risk am I taking? Have I worked to mitigate that risk? Have I done my due diligence? Have I done my work to understand the space I want to move into?

Sara Emmerson: Mm-hmm.

Amy Donovan: And so I think what happens is that doubt is really the unknown. That's where— what you doubt, right, is I don't know where this is going to go. However, I've done my work, right? I've done as much work as possible. But what happens when that joins with other people's absolute ignorance, because they're just jumping in late in the conversation, right? When those 2 things collide, it's really hard to move forward. It's very hard because you don't know what's truth and what's just kind of noise in your head.

Sara Emmerson: Yeah. And when you were in that crossroads, you just started this career.

Amy Donovan: Mm-hmm.

Sara Emmerson: You had left the lucrative job. What kept you going to know that there could be, um, possibility, progress? What was that fuel that kept, kept you in the game? Because I see so many people come and they, they're super talented and they are really excited at the beginning.

Amy Donovan: Mm-hmm.

Sara Emmerson: And they don't have the grit to stay in it.

Amy Donovan: Yeah.

Sara Emmerson: What kept you in it?

Amy Donovan: For me, I've always been this type of person. When I lock my sights on something, there's no moving me off of it. I mean, I am possibly one of the most stubborn people you'll ever meet. And I have succeeded and I've also failed colossally. So I'm— I know I can survive failures. And I've taught myself that over the years, that I can survive failures. and get back up again. And the old adage, get back up on the horse. I spent many years in equestrian eventing and different equestrian sports, so I got thrown off a lot of horses, metaphorically and realistically.

Sara Emmerson: Wow.

Amy Donovan: So it's a determination that you're going to do this no matter what. It's— listen, there's— I believe this about human beings. There's a part of us that calls to us. And we argue with it constantly. You know, it'll say, hey, take another look over here. No, I couldn't.

Sara Emmerson: You can't make a living doing that.

Amy Donovan: No, really, take a longer look over here. This, this could be interesting. No, I can't. Everybody will think I'm crazy. This is all going on.

Sara Emmerson: On either one of our shoulders, right? The angel and the devil on our shoulders. Yeah.

Amy Donovan: And we don't know how to sort out what what is a true voice that's really calling to me? And I think that for me, I've always been able to hear that voice a little more loudly and trust it. Because again, the trust comes from knowing that you can survive a failure and that in the failure are multiple gifts. Multiple gifts that are gonna help you get on a more true path. Afterwards.

Sara Emmerson: Tell me about a risk that didn't turn out the way you thought and the learnings that you, that came from that failure.

Amy Donovan: Yeah, let me go through the stack right here now to try to choose what would be— hmm. Okay. A risk that didn't turn out, I will tell you, I'm going to try and get through this story quickly. I, in 20— what was it, 2014? I decided to start a new practice, a whole new practice just geared towards leadership development, emerging leaders into more senior leadership roles. One of the things I realized in working with my practice partner, Karen Alberg, we realize people are put into leadership roles, but they're never prepared for leadership. They were really good technically, but nobody tells them, okay, hey, now throw that away, everything you built your success on, and now you're in the people business.

Sara Emmerson: Yeah.

Amy Donovan: So, right.

Sara Emmerson: They're great doers, but they're not great at helping others do.

Amy Donovan: Yeah. Yeah. So at that time, one of the things I thought about is like, Wow, microlearning was just coming onto the field, right? And I thought, let's create a whole huge library of microlearning tutorials for leaders bringing in other leaders to talk about. So we created this thing called Leaders to Learn From. And so we had access to a lot of senior-level executives who were talking about their thing.

Sara Emmerson: Awesome.

Amy Donovan: Now, you're gonna laugh when I tell you this because this was before there were all these learning management platforms out there. So I was hiring actors from Second City here in Chicago. We were doing live sets, bringing in video crews. Now you can see the dollar signs, right? Going like crazy.

Sara Emmerson: Ding, ding, ding, ding.

Amy Donovan: Yeah. But we knew we had something. I mean, we had test marketed this. We knew microlearning was emerging. We talked to some of the top learning and development people in the country about this. I mean, we really did our due diligence. on this. Fast forward, keep going, keep going, keep going. We developed this whole thing. We've got these things going. We're getting some traction on it. And now we hit the big time, right? We hit a contract, a $5.5 million contract to provide our learning services to a 40-year-old global organization. And the contract was signed, sealed and delivered. And I had literally bet the house on it. Like, I threw a lot of money. I was the primary investor in this. And then COVID happened and the whole thing collapsed. And so it was an enormous risk. I lost a lot of money on it.

Sara Emmerson: Yeah.

Amy Donovan: And now we're into the learning management platforms where this stuff, and we've got Canva and all this stuff makes it really easy. But I've gotten gobs of investment from all the years that we put all this microlearning together to get to this point.

Sara Emmerson: Wow.

Amy Donovan: And this is when the big payoff came and to recoup all that investment and it collapsed. So—

Sara Emmerson: What do you do in that moment? Going back to that moment, I've had those moments of the— I, that word that you just said, the collapse. I think there's people listening even now that they might be feeling that today, that they're in that moment of collapse.

Amy Donovan: Yeah.

Sara Emmerson: You can bring yourself back to that gut-wrenching moment.

Amy Donovan: Oh yeah.

Sara Emmerson: Recognizing it's, it's not going to move forward the way that you thought. What do you do? What do you do in that moment?

Amy Donovan: So, well, let me add 2 other pieces to this. I was also in the middle of a divorce after 33 years of marriage. So I was watching that happen. Wow.

Sara Emmerson: You're going through both at the same time, personally and professionally.

Amy Donovan: Right. And so what do you do? I'll tell you what I did. I headed for the woods. Like, I hiked 7 to 10 miles every single day, just trying to sort this out within myself. What happened? Where did I go wrong? Blah, blah, blah. I'm 59 years old. This shouldn't be happening at this point. Now what? I can't recoup this. I mean, it was— every moment was just, you know, 1 inch below absolute panic.

Sara Emmerson: Mm-hmm.

Amy Donovan: And there were other things going on at the same time, too. And so what I did was I just started hiking every day just to keep myself grounded.

Sara Emmerson: Yeah.

Amy Donovan: And I think that's the best thing to do is ground yourself, whatever that looks like for you. Stay out of places that are going to keep reinforcing, hey, you're, you know, something really bad just happened. And be able to be with thoughts that you can really have space and time And enough quietness to start sorting it out.

Sara Emmerson: Yeah.

Amy Donovan: And most people's, most people's first reaction is go, you know, just do whatever you have to do. And it becomes this kind of frenzied activity to start to rebuild something or get some semblance to make the— of sanity to make the panic go away.

Sara Emmerson: And we start to over-respond.

Amy Donovan: Yes.

Sara Emmerson: Which is the opposite. Out of the need to want to take control. Or out of the need to want to feel, quote unquote, feel better.

Amy Donovan: Exactly.

Sara Emmerson: Yeah.

Amy Donovan: And, and my response, knowing, having done this enough years, was to go the opposite direction.

Sara Emmerson: Yeah.

Amy Donovan: Sit in it. Just be in it. Um, allow the feelings to come because they're going to come one way or the other. Yeah. And allow them to come, allow yourself to feel them. And, and then once you're ready, you'll get back on your feet. And you'll be able to see a new direction.

Sara Emmerson: It really is the stages of grief, right? Whether it's—

Amy Donovan: Oh yeah.

Sara Emmerson: Whether it's grieving the business or the relationship, there's those stages every single time. And I know, I remember even in our years of working together, that moment for me when my trajectory of my, career was shifting, and I was like, Amy, I don't know what I'm going to do. And I was in that panic. And I remember your calm and your resolve and the moment that you let me borrow your belief. I didn't have it for myself, but I had to. And I hear you saying that for you too, to surround yourself with people that believe beyond your current circumstance.

Amy Donovan: Yeah.

Sara Emmerson: And allow their belief to to get you up to take the hike. I remember you telling me, move your body, create a schedule. If you're listening today—

Amy Donovan: Yeah.

Sara Emmerson: And you're in that moment of collapse, one of the things that Amy encouraged me to do, she was like, what's your schedule tomorrow? And I'm like, I don't know.

Amy Donovan: I don't have anything to do tomorrow.

Sara Emmerson: She's like, that's not true. You're gonna give yourself a schedule and you're gonna be accountable to me and we're gonna take this step by step. And obviously sitting in it was part of the schedule, right?

Amy Donovan: Yeah.

Sara Emmerson: Sitting in it, taking that, But then surrounding myself with people like you, Amy, who would allow me to borrow their belief for what was bigger, what was to come, and then sort through the things step by step. And so I know that was helpful to me. It sounds like that you were giving me the knowledge from what you had stepped through too.

Amy Donovan: Yeah, and it's, you have to believe, you have to believe that there is, this isn't the end.

Sara Emmerson: Yeah.

Amy Donovan: This isn't the end. And I say, I tell the rest of the story, you know, I was going through a divorce, I was 59 years old, all that. And because a lot of people would look at that and say, yeah, that is the end. Like, how are you ever going to regroup and reestablish what you've worked your entire life financially to get towards, right? So I'm sitting here now, and I'm here to tell you, I did. I regrouped. I regrouped. I live with the love of my life now. And everything worked out. It did because I believed it would. I know it can. And that's what the gift of failure is previous to this. You know, this was my big colossal failure here. I'd had multiple smaller, you know, less invested failures that taught me you can get through any failure. And I don't regret any one of them. I don't. What does—

Sara Emmerson: not regretting them is a choice. How does someone do that? How does someone choose to not regret?

Amy Donovan: Well, if you're in the moment, it's really hard, right? When you're still in the panic phase and then going through the phases of grief about whatever it is, it's really hard to do. It's the ability to reflect on it and see the gifts in it.

Sara Emmerson: Yeah.

Amy Donovan: And I know, you know, some people are like, oh, that just sounds like self-help mumbo jumbo. It really isn't. You know, the question you have to ask yourself is, what if I live a completely comfortable life without any risks? What would my life look like? And, you know, just go on and Google what are the top regrets people have when they die.

Sara Emmerson: Yeah.

Amy Donovan: And one of the top ones is that they didn't do what was in their heart to do.

Sara Emmerson: Yeah. And not the failure. That's the thing that's so interesting. It's not the things that they failed from. It's the things that they never tried.

Amy Donovan: Exactly. Exactly. I mean, you've sat with enough people. In their final hours, you know, and these are the things that people regret is that there was so much in their heart to live and they didn't live it. And I, you know, I was really clear, I did not want to have that regret on my deathbed, whatever age I died at. And so that's how I've lived my life. Yeah.

Sara Emmerson: Well, you doing that has impacted obviously your own life. You're sitting here with such an incredible Uh, career and success. Um, I think people always look at success as, uh, up and to the right, like it always is going well. And, um, for you, you've had tons of successes. Um, and those have been filled with the trials too. But in this mo— in this very moment, what would you define success as? How would you define success in this? stage of your career and life?

Amy Donovan: Well, I have a t-shirt made for myself.

Sara Emmerson: Oh, really?

Amy Donovan: Yes. And it says, just say yes to the whole catastrophe.

Sara Emmerson: I love it.

Amy Donovan: That to me is success. Your ability to say yes. Yes to yourself, no matter what, right? And yeah, there's some really stupid stuff I said yes to. But for the most part, I've never regretted saying yes. And yes, it is the whole catastrophe of life, right? Life is—

Sara Emmerson: Yes.

Amy Donovan: Catastrophes and beauty and wonderful and awful and the— You know, it's, it's all of it. And I think to me, success is to be able to say yes to all of it, accept it, and make it part of who you are, the fabric of who you are.

Sara Emmerson: Yeah, I love that. And that choosing that the catastrophe, no matter what it is, that there's beauty within it and you can move forward.

Amy Donovan: Absolutely. Absolutely.

Sara Emmerson: You have worked with some of the most interesting and successful and just brilliant people, coaching them around the world. And so I would love to have some time here where we can gain some knowledge of the people that you have worked with. And I'd love to hear, given that you have coached leaders at every level, and I mean every level, what do the best leaders—

Amy Donovan: I'm going to start with humility. And I lead with that for a reason. And I'll come back to that. But humility would be the first thing on the list. The second is to be self-reflective. They understand and know themselves. They live their life and their careers and the way they lead as well, true to who they are, because they know who they are.

Sara Emmerson: Mm-hmm.

Amy Donovan: It's never, you know, their integrity is never at question because they know what their integrity is. It's not adjustable. It's not flexible. It's not malleable depending on the situation. They're true to their own integrity. Those would be the, the top things. Yeah.

Sara Emmerson: No, I think that integrity and humility is so important, and it doesn't matter what industry you're in. You find that as I work with leaders now all over, I find that it doesn't matter what industry they're in, whether it's at an executive level or if they're a creative, they're an entrepreneur, they're successful in in many different ways, um, that humility and the integrity piece. Um, and we know for, for people listening right now, um, I want— you and I've had conversations about this many times, but, uh, what does living in integrity and living out of integrity look like?

Amy Donovan: Yeah. Um, you had a term early on, I think when you were introducing me or we were talking earlier on about authentic leadership. Right. And we use that word authenticity a little too loosely. I really believe authenticity grows as we grow. And the definition of what's authentic to me, you know what, we thought we were authentic at 17 when we were being cool and doing cool 17-year-old things, right? Which is different than our authenticity at 45.

Sara Emmerson: Yeah.

Amy Donovan: So authenticity grows as we grow. But to be in integrity means that it goes even beyond authenticity, more into the core of who we are. This part of ourselves that came into the world when we did, right?

Sara Emmerson: Yeah.

Amy Donovan: That is, that is always with us. That is always calling us to our highest self. That is always reaching for more aliveness. It's our allegiance to that.

Sara Emmerson: Yes.

Amy Donovan: I think that, that's most important.

Sara Emmerson: And would you agree that when we feel that chaos, I'm not talking about the wonderful catastrophe of life, but that chaotic part of our leadership or our personal life, that we can come back? And I, I never like to say always, but a good amount of the time we can come back and recognize that it, there's some portion of our life where we're living outside of that integrity. When that chaotic feeling is happening or when we see that chaos happening?

Amy Donovan: Yeah. Um, I do. That's part of our evolution as human beings is when we drift away from who we are. And, and part of our thing is finding our way back, right? Yeah. Finding our way back to a new iteration of ourselves, wherever we went when we drifted away from ourselves.

Sara Emmerson: Yeah.

Amy Donovan: So I think, you know, one of the things I often say to my clients, because sometimes they do have regrets, there's, you know, I work with people who make really hard decisions that affect and impact a lot of people.

Sara Emmerson: Right.

Amy Donovan: And they live with that, right? There's, and then on top of that is the liability of the enterprise that they live with, that they carry. And that puts a lot of strain on us, you know, living into our true nature. And I think that one of the things we all need to give ourselves the room for is that there's going to be times where we are not who we are, which helps us get closer to understanding who we are. I hope that makes sense.

Sara Emmerson: No, it does.

Amy Donovan: So we live who we're not, which helps us learn who we are.

Sara Emmerson: Hmm. And how is coaching helpful to that evolution?

Amy Donovan: So I'll go back to what I said about sorting out what's truth and what's the noise in our head. I think in coaching, what we're trained to do is help people do just that, to gain more awareness about what is really true for me versus what am I conditioned to believe, What are adaptations that I developed in different seasons of my life that no longer serve what's going on right now, but I've dragged them forward into this?

Sara Emmerson: Yeah.

Amy Donovan: And so coaching really helps people identify that stuff. They help them identify what's really the Truth in my head with a capital T, right? And also, what are these adaptations that I no longer need? that helped me cope before or helped me succeed before, whatever it is, that's no longer applicable to where I am right now.

Sara Emmerson: Yeah, I love that. I remember some of the conversations we've had, and you've talked to me about just having patterns. You're like, you have a pattern that no longer is needed, that you can create a new one. Like, it's something that has served you, and even the bad patterns that we have in our lives, we have to admit when we take 100% responsibility that there's something within it that was serving us. That's why we held onto it.

Amy Donovan: Yep.

Sara Emmerson: And so teaching everybody that like, hey, you can have a new pattern, a new rhythm. You can start in a new space today. And I love that part of the coaching, um, is that recognition that, hey, just because something has been doesn't mean it has to continue that way. You can choose right in this moment to realign to your integrity, to realign to your values, to make a new choice. And so the thing that I love so much about coaching is that it brings a higher level of thinking and a deeper level of knowing.

Amy Donovan: Yeah.

Sara Emmerson: So you go to that higher level of thinking, the deeper level of knowing. And so when I'm stepping forward, I do so more confidently. I step forward, um, with more bravery.

Amy Donovan: Mm-hmm.

Sara Emmerson: And you've been a huge, uh, catalyst in that for me and for so many others. So I'm, I'm grateful. Yeah, definitely. Um, I could sit here and talk to you literally all day because, um, we do that. Um, uh, one fun little behind the scenes thing, Amy and I, for those of you that are listening, Amy and I, um, coach together. We, uh, we met on a coaching call. She's a, a coach for a, um, for another organization that, um, I ended up going through. And I met her on the call and on the call we realized, um, that she lived in Batavia and I live in Geneva. So if you're in around Illinois, you know that that's pretty close to each other. And there were people literally from all over the world on this call. And so the fact that she lived just not very far away, um, and she was the teacher on this call and I, and she had said that she didn't take many, uh, new students. Well, that didn't stop me. And when Amy said that she has grit, that's one of the things that her and I— Um, aligned with. So I messaged her and I was like, I know you're not taking new students, but you're going to take me and here's why. And I, I appealed to her as to why she needed to take me on as a client, um, and a student. And she graciously did. But we coached together, um, for a couple years before we ever met in person, which was really incredible when we finally got to meet in person. And we've done that multiple times now.

Amy Donovan: Yeah.

Sara Emmerson: But Amy, when you're taking on a new student, when you're taking on somebody new, tell me a little bit about those moments where you're like, okay, I work with tons of different people. You have this woman who's like, please, please, please help me. Yeah.

Amy Donovan: Well, with you, listen, with you it was easy because I went, oh my gosh, you know, here's somebody that, that's singing my song. She's taking a risk and she's, she's contacting me and Thinking against all odds, I'm going to make this happen. So that to me, just, you know, that just speaks to my heart. So that was an easy decision, by the way.

Sara Emmerson: Well, thank you. I appreciate that.

Amy Donovan: But I think, you know, we— this is something nobody teaches us to do, and that is shoot high and ask.

Sara Emmerson: Yes.

Amy Donovan: Just ask.

Sara Emmerson: Yeah.

Amy Donovan: We're so conditioned to overthink everything before we take one little step. And, you know, as you know, Sarah, in my later years now, my new obsession and passion is improv comedy, which was something I always wanted to do.

Sara Emmerson: Well, you never cease to amaze me because you have the equestrian, you were a literal dog expert, you were in martial arts, you had a martial arts studio, and now you're in improv. So If this says nothing more, everybody, make sure you have interesting hobbies and you never stop. So yes, she's—

Amy Donovan: All the while I was coaching too, though.

Sara Emmerson: Yes, that's so crazy.

Amy Donovan: These are these passions that we have to say yes to, right? Just say yes. Like, and here I am in my 60s and I'm— I thought, I'm gonna go do this because I've always wanted to do it. But what it's teaching me is to stop censoring myself, stop overthinking everything because That's what improv is, right? In the moment, you are acting out whatever is going on on that stage, which can change at any moment. And it has, it has really upped my game. I've been doing that with clients for over 30 years.

Sara Emmerson: Mm-hmm.

Amy Donovan: However, when it comes to me, my own vulnerability, and you're standing in front of a theater full of people and they— and it's like, go, you know, and then you're just making it up. It's a new ballgame there. And so I wanted to push my own growing edge, and that was the way I chose to do it. And I absolutely love it. So because it really does make me stop censoring myself, make— there's no time to question yourself. You are just in the flow, and it's in connection and partnership with others.

Sara Emmerson: Yeah.

Amy Donovan: And so it has taught me so much more than I already had coming into it. So I forgot the question and, but that was my answer. What was the question?

Sara Emmerson: No, that, that is a perfect answer, uh, to, to the question. And what I love to know too with improv, obviously that correlates to real life too in the stop, um, saying no to things. Stop questioning yourself.

Amy Donovan: Yes.

Sara Emmerson: But for you, if in leadership or in life, what would you say to somebody who's in that crossroads where they're questioning theirself or they're questioning, should I take that next step? Yeah.

Amy Donovan: And what I tell my clients, there's a part of you that's already made the decision or we wouldn't be having this conversation. So what is that decision? And it's always that they want to do it.

Sara Emmerson: I love that.

Amy Donovan: It always is.

Sara Emmerson: I love it because you've asked me that question before.

Amy Donovan: Yeah, you've heard that trick before.

Sara Emmerson: But I, but I love it. And it's so true. There is a knowing that we already have. We're just waiting for Um, confirmation sometimes from other people, sometimes from information.

Amy Donovan: Yeah.

Sara Emmerson: Um, we're, uh, continuing to want to gain more of the outside, uh, really what it is, we're, we're wanting to gain that outside security.

Amy Donovan: Yeah.

Sara Emmerson: Um, before we take the step. But most often that confidence or that security isn't gonna happen without the courage.

Amy Donovan: Yeah. Yeah.

Sara Emmerson: So would you agree that courage comes before confidence?

Amy Donovan: No.

Sara Emmerson: No. Okay.

Amy Donovan: No. So if you're waiting to get the confidence to do things, that comes post doing it.

Sara Emmerson: Right. That's what I mean. Like, you have to take the courage. Yeah. You have to have the courage to say yes before the confidence will happen.

Amy Donovan: Yes. Oh, I'm sorry. I thought you said the opposite. Yeah.

Sara Emmerson: Yeah. Yeah.

Amy Donovan: No, you have to. And there's, it's a, it's a, you know, leap and hope the net appears.

Sara Emmerson: Yes.

Amy Donovan: And if it doesn't, know that you can bounce.

Sara Emmerson: Exactly. I love that. Leap and know that you, uh, that the net is there and if it doesn't, you can bounce.

Amy Donovan: Yeah. I just stole the net thing from Julia Cameron, by the way, from The Artist's Way, the book.

Sara Emmerson: Yeah.

Amy Donovan: That's okay. I need to give attribution.

Sara Emmerson: No, I appreciate that.

Amy Donovan: That's good. Yeah. Yeah.

Sara Emmerson: What's a risk that you have taken and leaped knowing the net was there? and it went well and you were so excited about? What's one of the risks that you're like, I'm really glad I took that?

Amy Donovan: Well, I got a lot of those too, but I'm gonna say coaching, right? I mean, that was— I was young. I, you know, I could have absorbed failures a lot better at that age, but I took a huge risk. I was— my communications business was very successful. at the time when I made this decision. And as I said, I was in my early 30s. However, I look back now over the past 33 years, I think it is now, and say, what would my life have been if I would have stayed in that? Because I wasn't happy. My partnership wasn't strong. And I was in a business partnership that wasn't strong. And I didn't particularly like the business, but it was, you know, it was great. The money was great. Yeah. And, you know, the prestige of owning a communications business and all that. I got, you know, a lot of doors opened for me and things like that. But, and then to go risk and do something nobody had ever heard of, nobody was supporting me in because they didn't understand it.

Sara Emmerson: Right.

Amy Donovan: That was a huge risk. And I look at what my life had, would've been without this. And it almost chokes me up when I think about what I would've missed out on.

Sara Emmerson: Yeah. And what so many others would've missed out on.

Amy Donovan: Okay.

Sara Emmerson: Well, yeah. And I think we forget that when we're taking a risk that we're just thinking about ourselves, obviously.

Amy Donovan: Yeah. Yeah.

Sara Emmerson: But that ripple effect.

Amy Donovan: Yeah.

Sara Emmerson: There's a ripple effect that when you take a risk, There's a benefit to so many other people, too.

Amy Donovan: Yeah. Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. And if nothing else, yeah. And if nothing else, and what you're modeling for them.

Sara Emmerson: Yes. Yeah. And modeling thing. Yes. Yeah, exactly. We're going to go into a little bit of a lightning round here. Oh, let's do it. Fun questions. You ready?

Amy Donovan: Okay.

Sara Emmerson: Um, complete these sentences with the first thing that comes to mind. Okay. Leadership is hard. Success is worth it. Failure is worth it. Risk is fun.

Amy Donovan: I love that.

Sara Emmerson: Coaching is my passion. I love that. Okay, there's one question that I end each of these podcasts with. And it's this: What is one risk you think everyone should take at some point in their life?

Amy Donovan: To participate in reality fully. Hmm. And I know that sounds abstract, but what I mean by that is that we spend so much energy and time trying to kid ourselves, talk ourselves out of it, bring in all sorts of evidence of why we shouldn't. But the reality is still there that this is— this needs to be experienced. There's a part of you that wants to be in it. It's not gonna be comfortable, um, but you do it anyhow. And, and that's full participation in, in the reality of what's calling to you.

Sara Emmerson: I love that. Thank you. Um, also tell us a little bit about Prime, what you're doing now, and how people can connect with you in, uh, online or with the Prime community.

Amy Donovan: So Prime Coaching Academy is a coach— is an accredited coach training organization with the International Coaching Federation. And we train both Level 1 and Level 2, um, programs for coaches to get certified by the International Coaching Federation. And, uh, so Prime is a passion project for me. I've written multiple other programs for other organizations and universities. This one is my magnum opus.

Sara Emmerson: So, well, I've had many clients go through PRIME and they speak so highly of it. And you, um, were my coach in, in my certification too, um, or getting, excuse me, in getting certified. So I can speak highly of that, um, as well. So if you're listening today and you're thinking, hey, I might want to be a coach, Check out Prime Academy online, and we'll make sure that we link that in the, in the notes too. But I cannot say more about what Prime can do for you or what Amy and her coaching can do in your life or in, in what you're looking to do as a coach moving forward. So check them out.

Amy Donovan: Thank you so much, Sarah.

Sara Emmerson: Yes. Amy, thank you for being here with us today, and thank you for being with me in my life and in my business and in my journey. Um, we really appreciate your time and, um, your knowledge and the risks you've taken.

Amy Donovan: Oh, thank you. Thanks for having me. And I just love what you're doing on this podcast. It just is aligned with the wonderful coaching you're doing in the world.

Sara Emmerson: Well, thank you so much. And for those of you that are listening, To That Sounds Risky today. If you're ready to take a risk and you haven't yet, and you know you're sitting at that crossroads and you need somebody to help you borrow their belief, or you need somebody to help you take that next step or help you to get clear on that, go to sarahemerson.com, sign up for a coaching consultation. I can help you. I believe that your next risk is where your next success lies. Take the risk. And you will succeed one way or another. Thanks for listening. Have a great day.