Sara Emmerson: Welcome to That Sounds Risky, the podcast for people who sense there's something more ahead, but they aren't always sure exactly what that something more is. I'm Sara Emmerson. I believe risk is the price to a meaningful life, and in each episode we talk about the decisions, the challenges, and the brave next steps that help us grow. And today I am thrilled because our guest today is, one, she's wicked smart, and two, she's my friend. So I'm very, very thrilled. Thank you. that today we have Dr. Kimberly Lemke with us, and Dr. Lemke is a licensed clinical psychologist. She's an entrepreneur and an international keynote speaker who has spent over 20 years in the rooms where performance and retention are actually on the line, and she is the trusted sleep and performance expert for Fortune 100 and Fortune 500 companies. So Kim, or Dr. Lemke, thank you so much for being here today. We are thrilled to have you on the podcast.

Guest: Thank you for having me. I'm looking forward to this.

Sara Emmerson: Yeah, me too. So our relationship, our friendship started with risk. That's one of the reasons that one, I just love talking to you. I could talk to you for all of the day, um, all of the hours. But as we were thinking of people to come on here, I was thinking, man, Kim and I's relationship, our friendship started out of a big risk you took. Uh, well, uh, maybe it didn't feel so big for you at the time, but, um, I'm just excited to talk to you about risk today, and I want you to share with everyone how we met.

Guest: It's a good story. So I had met Sarah, our kids went to school together, and I can't remember all the details. I remember the main detail though. And the main detail was I had won this Enterprising Women of the Year Award, and it was in Orlando, Florida. You and I had known each other, we had like through piano lessons, and we had seen each other and talked. And you just had such a good spirit in that you were such a good human. At the time, I was going through a divorce, and I had to go get this award. And I just remember thinking, like, who do I want there with me? And I didn't know you that well at all, right? And so I was like— Oh my gosh. Like, do you ask? Is that weird? And to be honest, I didn't even think that hard about it. I think it's just in my heart and my soul, I knew the kind of human you were, and I wanted you by me. And I knew it was also a room full of women that I think you could serve well as well. And so I took the risk and I just randomly was like, hey, want to go stay in Orlando with me and watch me get an award? And you were just like, yeah, sure. Like, I just remember being like, okay. And from that point on, I mean, I'm just so grateful to have met you and known you. And I think what made that risk easier to take

was you, not me necessarily having the courage as much as You allowing me the safety to take the risk. So I appreciate that, friend.

Sara Emmerson: Well, thank you so much. And, um, I, you're always so good to give encouragement to others, but, um, thank you. It was an honor to go. And when you asked it, I felt honored. You said, hey, look, I was thinking about who I would want to be standing with me or, um, cheering me on and there with me on in that moment. And I just really felt honored because, um, I am somebody that loves to cheer people on, but I really cared about you and cared about your life. Oh, thank you. And, um, was so proud of you. And, um, it was really so much fun. We had a great weekend. Um, so many fun memories. Um, everything from the awards ceremony to fun karaoke night. Um, we don't have to go into all of those details, but it was a really great weekend of celebrating all that you have done and, Um, what you have created and who you are. And so I want to just get into that a little bit, um, today too, for you to tell people, like, over your career and your life, you've taken many, many risks. Um, you help people, um, who are taking risks or who are struggling in the midst of, of that. So tell people a little bit about who you are and how, uh, you help people on a daily basis.

Guest: Yeah. So about, I always say it started when I was about 4 years old. My mom told the story. I didn't even know this was a story. Um, and she would tell the story then. that I would apparently line up Barbies on my couch and ask them how they felt, which I wasn't— What? Like, I didn't know I did that. I feel like now I have a whole lot more questions about that. But I would line them up. And so I just felt from early on, just helping take care of people and their emotions and how they felt was just a calling for me. I didn't, again, like I said, know it at the time. And then went on and got my master's and my doctorate in clinical psychology and got a minor with children and adolescents just because I felt like I wanted to be able to help sort of the whole timeline of someone's life. Yeah. So went and did that and worked in, you know, hospital settings, worked in behavioral school settings, then got out and decided I was gonna open my own practice, which was definitely a risk, but felt like it was something that I wanted to do. So opened my own practice and And then as I was at my own practice, we continued— the clinicians I hired, we would always ask the question to people of, how do you sleep? And so it's just one of our standard questions that we would ask. And so the answers we usually get was, I wake up between 2 to 4 AM,

I can't turn my brain off at night, or I just can't sleep for some reason. And so what I found is that we would do what I've always done throughout my whole clinical career is we'd be like, sleep is so important, and then we just sort of move on. And I was just sort of done with that. And so I went back and got more training in sleep and decided to open up a second company, which is Drift. And Drift is a sleep and wellness company. And what we do is we go into organizations and law firms. And what we do is we help individuals understand what to do during their day so that they sleep better at night without taking a moment away from their hours during the day, because most of us don't have time to You know, take 2 hours outside for a walk or things like that. So I started my second company, and I am a mom of twins. And so it's— I thought, what better thing to do when you're already stressed than open a second company?

Sara Emmerson: Right. Well, or to help other people sleep better so that you can know how to sleep better too. Right?

Guest: That's so true.

Sara Emmerson: Yeah.

Guest: Might as well.

Sara Emmerson: Or while you're not sleeping, figure out how to help other people. That works as well.

Guest: Absolutely.

Sara Emmerson: Yeah.

Guest: Absolutely.

Sara Emmerson: But, um, I've been around, uh, you watching you and cheering you on, um, as you've started the second company. And it's been really exciting to, to be a part of just seeing all that you've created in that. Um, but being an entrepreneur, even going back to you starting the first one, there's, there's a grit that goes through, like you just talked about getting your master's and your doctorate and all that. There's definitely risks taken in that and, um, Just even defining what you wanna do. I mean, so many listeners here, um, I get people messaging me saying, hey, I'm 50 and still trying to figure out what I wanna do. Understandable. But you had this path and then you went through it and decided, hey, I'm gonna do this on my own. That's a different level of risk. Talk to me about that. How, how did you decide that and, and actually put, uh, movement towards it?

Guest: So I had, you know, it's sort of like there's a trajectory when it comes to psychology in terms of how you're going to use the degree. And so when I had graduated, I was working for another group practice and just the amount of work I was doing, right? The amount of patients I was bringing in on my own, I really just started to gain confidence in, I can do this by myself. I still wasn't quite ready to do it. I was still scared and I was still nervous. And so I remember I went into my managers and I had this whole printout of, right, all the patients I brought in, all the revenue I was bringing in, right? All this sort of stuff. Yeah. And I thought, this is like, I'm going to ask, right? And at that point, I was only asking for a 2% to 3% increase, which is not a lot at all based on how much I was bringing in.

Sara Emmerson: Right.

Guest: And I remember just being so nervous, but I'm like, I'm going to make the ask. And so I showed them all the numbers and they said no. And I just remember looking at them being like, oh my gosh, like, just from a business perspective, this is really dumb. That's a stupid no.

Sara Emmerson: It's a really dumb no.

Guest: It's a really stupid— it's a really dumb no. And so I just remember leaving there, and I'm so grateful for the no because that was— that's what I needed for me to have the courage to start my own business. Because if they would have said yes, I would've stayed. I would've gotten my 2 to, 2 to 3%. Yeah. So I, sometimes I think we're so afraid of the no, but the nos sometimes are the things that we need to help us take the next step.

Sara Emmerson: Absolutely. Absolutely. I know for me it was actual rejection that pushed me into starting the thing that I knew I wanted to start, but didn't fully have the courage to do yet. And so it sounds like that was for you too. So anyone that's listening out there, if you are today feeling like, Oh gosh, I'm just feeling this rejection. I want you to understand, I, I love to say this to clients and friends, like rejection can be God's protection sometimes, right? We, it protects us from the thing that we could stay in that we're loyal to that might not even be the best for us. And so if you're feeling that rejection, that, that actually is something that can be energy to catapult you into something new and different, even though it's scary and hard. And so in that moment for you, you were realizing, okay, I can't stay here if they're not going to respect me. That's what I'm assuming that led to for you.

Guest: Yeah. And I think you're right. At the time I had, you know, a family that I wanted to start and I was getting married and, you know, like I, it just, it was time. And I remember years and years later I was, um, doing a training or a podcast and a woman on there who was sort of co-hosting with me. had said, a no isn't always a no. It's just a not yet.

Sara Emmerson: Yeah.

Guest: And I really like that. Like, I feel like you can't see it, but on my wall over here, when I started Drift, I didn't know what I was doing. I mean, you remember that. Like, I was just like, I don't know. I just— this is something, and I want to be able to help people. And so I remember I had gone to this particular place. I won't name it. And I had this whole proposal of everything that I was going to do. I sent it to her and I literally had— it's the only thing over here on the wall. And it says, thank you for reaching out. Unfortunately, a decision was made to pass on the training opportunity at this time. And I remember I was holding it in my hand because I had printed it out because I'm old. And I printed it out and I was looking at it. And I remember thinking, this is the moment. It's going to be my decision what I do with this.

Sara Emmerson: Yeah.

Guest: I can either— use it as evidence of I knew it wasn't going to work, right? Or I use it as like, underestimate me, this will be fun. And that's what I did. And so it's been on my wall for years. And interestingly enough, the person who said no just this past few months had told somebody else that she knew, hey, I think you should hire her. She actually had never hired me, but she had seen the work I was doing with other companies. And so I worked with That other company. So I still have it just as a motivation to say, like, all rejections, to your point, don't have to be something that makes us stop what we're doing. It can just make us continue moving.

Sara Emmerson: I love that. The no is the not yet. And recognizing too, not all people are going to be our people.

Guest: Yes.

Sara Emmerson: Yes. Right? Not all the people are gonna be our people, and that's okay. And even though she didn't Hire you, you proved to her, and I think sometimes we forget this, there's different adopters of things, right? You have the, the early adopters, you have those that need to gain information, those that are the late. For her, it might've been needing to gain proof, or she might have not been the final stamp of approval and she didn't have it at this, at the ability to say yes at that point. That's right. But you proved to her your legitimacy. You proved to her what Drift could do. And she was able to refer you to somebody else. And so, so it's not always gonna be that person that's gonna be your person, but that person could be somebody that knows someone else.

Guest: Yes, absolutely.

Sara Emmerson: Yeah.

Guest: And, and I think too that the other thing that becomes important too is I think sometimes our own personal life at the time also shapes our sort of restaking our professional, right, goals. Right. I was just going through a divorce. Right? And so getting a rejection, I didn't feel like taking another one, right? This wasn't a part of my plan. This wasn't what I was thinking was going to happen. And so really, I was trying to shy away from any risk of rejection. Really, it was the last thing I wanted. And so I think a part of it was when that came through, it had to be like, well, what is this going to prove then? Right? And so at that point, it was, no, I'm going to prove— it's like that Phoenix rising through the ashes thing, right? That I'm way too stubborn, as you know, right, to take this as evidence of like, yeah, maybe you shouldn't. So I do think that where we're at personally helps shape the risks that we're willing to take.

Sara Emmerson: Yeah. Tell me more about that. So as you see clients daily in your practice and you've worked with many, many high performers and professionals, tell me about the Ability, because there are people that are still, uh, willing and able to take risk even when it's difficult. But how do you work through that individually?

Guest: I just, uh, I was blessed to have done a, a keynote with an organization or some trainings in Costa Rica the last week. And what was interesting was I had done, they had asked for a presentation specifically on imposter syndrome. And the reason was that their people were feeling it. And these are high executives, right? These are also sort of every tier you could imagine. And so I think the hard part for all of us was, of all the different trainings I did, that was when people were like, gosh, I can relate, right? Like the nodding, you know, the yes, like, that's me. And so I think we just, we believe our own thoughts. And I can't remember who said it, but there's a quote that says, A thought is just a thought until you believe it. And so, you know, you're going to believe a thought until you release it and pull down another one. And so that's where, you know, talking to people about, you know, if you think about it as clouds— I'm a super visual person. So if you think about it as like clouds passing in the sky, right? You know, if you go up and you pull one down and you hold it, right? And that's what you believe, you miss all the other ones going by. And so part of the thing to help people understand is release the thought. You don't have to hold on to it. It's literally just a thought. And so release it.

If it comes back around, great. Acknowledge it, look at it, and then wait for the next one to go by. So just sort of disempowering that fear, disempowering that imposter syndrome, disempowering all of that so that you keep moving.

Sara Emmerson: Absolutely. And recognizing, I mean, we have— thousands upon thousands of thoughts a day. Yes. I, I talk to clients about this all the time, especially high performers. Our brains often are on hyper speed, and it's so true. We believe the thought that's in our head because it came from us. But the truth is most of those thoughts are not true. They're self-deprecating, they're, they're doubting. Um, and when we believe them and we don't challenge them, that's really where we get stuck. It's not always our ability. Many people have I, I'm sure each person listening to this can think of either for themselves or others they know, people that have great skill but do nothing with it. And usually it's because of their own inability to get out of their head or out of their own way. Do you find that often?

Guest: Yeah. And I always tell people that, right, your, your head thinks your heart beats, right? That's just what they're made to do. Right? And so your head is not your enemy. Your thoughts are not your enemy. It's doing what it's supposed to do. It's supposed to think. Right? And your head is also programmed to look for discrepancies. Right? Because it's trying to, in a sense, like, keep you safe. It's trying to look for things that don't align with other things. And so when it sees something, it's like, ooh, that's not good. It's, in a sense, warning you too, which is— Absolutely. And so to look at it and say, okay, Your heart and your head have to work together. And so I think a lot of times we focus so much on our thoughts. So how do you change your thinking? How do you— and to be honest, if you've ever been depressed, if you've ever been anxious, if you've ever been heartbroken, if you've ever been going through grief, anything, saying to your head, you know what, let's just not be sad, it doesn't work. I mean, it would be great, right? I mean, if it worked, I would happily have it. Yeah. Right? Like, right, just don't be sad anymore.

Sara Emmerson: Don't be sad anymore. No, everything's gonna be fine.

Guest: Everything's good, right?

Sara Emmerson: Yeah.

Guest: And so I think we, we underplay the powerhouse, which is our emotions, right? Our thoughts are incredibly important, but really figure out how we feel and then how to deal with that along with your thoughts. Because I think if we just do thoughts and we don't recognize the emotions, you know, it's sort of— I am zero bit handy. So Just be very aware of this when I use this analogy. I was trying to fix something the other day with my dad, and he was like, go get me a screwdriver. And I was like, well, there's a few. One's got a little X on it, one's got a flat, right? And he was like, do you not know the names? I'm like, I don't know what you're asking for, right? And he was like, the screwdriver.

Sara Emmerson: Oh my goodness.

Guest: Right? And so I was like, oh gosh. So I just remember going out and I brought in— I had a whole tray of different screwdrivers, and I was like, Pick one. Pick one, right?

Sara Emmerson: Yeah.

Guest: And so he looked at them. He's like, none of these work but this one. And I remember thinking, you could bring 1,000 tools to something, but if it's not the right tool, it doesn't work. Right? And so when it comes to changing our thoughts, when it comes to managing our emotions, you have to be using the right tool to help it.

Sara Emmerson: Yeah. No, that, that is so true. And when you don't, or when someone brings you the wrong tool, say you're in grief or you're going through a transition, you've just lost your job, or you've just stepped into a broken, uh, relationship or, or stepping out of one. Um, somebody brings you the wrong tool and we all know what that feels like. Yeah. You don't feel seen. You feel, um, like it's trite. They might mean well, but you're like, that's just not what I need. And so that can happen to ourselves, right? We keep using the wrong tool or when others are trying to help us too. But gosh, when that right tool shows up.

Guest: Yes.

Sara Emmerson: When that right tool shows up, there's just that alignment of feels like you're able to take a deep breath for the first time in a long time.

Guest: Yes. To your point, it feels right. And so I think when we're getting in our way about growing or taking risk or performing and we start looking at, okay, well, what's the emotion behind it? Right? What are my feeling? Like, what's driving me to be afraid of the risk? What's driving me to be afraid of the promotion? What's driving me to be afraid of starting something new or stopping something, right? Sometimes also a risk in stopping a certain behavior or certain—

Sara Emmerson: Oftentimes there are, yeah.

Guest: Absolutely. So I think a part of it too becomes really looking at both of those and saying, okay, how— what is getting in my way? And also, how do I not deep dive in social media and do what the right thing is? I think that there's a lot of the right thing to do to push through is say this or do this or feel this, or— and then we feel guilty when it doesn't work, right? So if it's relaxation or whatever it is, if let's say you have to go into a meeting and you're about to run a meeting that let's say you've never run or you're anxious about it and you're like, okay, well, what I learned is you know, meditating for 5 minutes is the key. And in your head, you're like, God, I hate meditating, though, right? Like, I don't want to do it, right? I hate it. But I researched it, and it's the thing to do. Right. And, right, like, for me, before I go on, I have a certain playlist of— for me, it's Christian songs. And that's what I— it's not meditating, right? Meditating would actually irritate me, if I'm being honest, before I go on stage. It wouldn't calm me down. So what I know works for me is a certain— there's 3 songs. I listen to them continuously in the morning before I go on stage. I say the words before I get up and I go on stage because that's what works for me. So also sort of taking risks and

growing to really learn yourself and understand, like, this is what helps me, and give yourself the grace and the permission to do the tool that helps you. It's not uniform.

Sara Emmerson: Well, and taking the time to identify that.

Guest: Yeah.

Sara Emmerson: I think so many people are, are living moment to moment and aren't slowing down enough. That's why I believe so heavily in, um, going to counseling and having coaches and therapists in your life where you can slow down and examine what's actually going on with your feelings, right? Because when we bring that light to the darkness, right? If we look at, not that all feelings are dark, but they feel heavy. They feel like we can't get through them often. But when we put light on them, I re— I remember a scenario, um, a few years ago when I was really doing a lot of feelings work and I, um, was, I walked out of a situation. Um, I was actually at a sporting event with, with my kids and I walked out and I was just feeling really anxious and weird. And I didn't, and I walked out into the lobby and I recognized, I was like, oh, I feel jealous right now.

Guest: Yeah.

Sara Emmerson: I feel jealous right now. And I was able to put a name to it and I didn't make it bad. I didn't make it wrong. I just made it, I've just brought light to it. And then I got to choose, what do I wanna do with that? Yes. What do I wanna do with this right now? Well, I don't wanna act out of the feeling. I wanna acknowledge the feeling. I wanna feel it all the way through because jealousy is a, a light to something deeper, right? for me to understand. I always look at feelings like the little lights on our dashboard of our car, right? The engine light isn't wrong. I mean, sometimes it can be faulty, but the, uh, in and of itself, I can't be mad at the engine light. I can be aware of it, that it's telling me something deeper. And so in that moment, I was able to go, yeah, I feel jealous, but guess what? I wanna act out of my character. Yes. I wanna act out of who I wanna be. So there's times that we're like, yeah, I'm angry. That meeting didn't go the way that I wanted it to, or that proposal got a, a decline. Just like, I love that you printed it out and put it on the wall.

Guest: I did.

Sara Emmerson: We've talked about that many times and I love that.

Guest: Yeah.

Sara Emmerson: But, um, we can, we can have a feeling about it and when we don't acknowledge it, um, I heard an analogy once that I, I use and I love is that it's like taking a beach ball and pushing it underneath the water. Right in, in a pool. You're gonna push the feeling under and yeah, you can make it disappear for a, a moment, but that's gonna pop up somewhere. Yeah. It's gonna pop up somewhere until you acknowledge it and move through it. And so the feelings are so important to our success in business, our success in relationships, our success in, um, starting to take risks and continuing to do so. Absolutely.

Guest: There was a scene in— I don't know if you've ever seen Ted Lasso.

Sara Emmerson: I love Ted Lasso.

Guest: I love Ted Lasso. And I always reference this scene because the other thing you know when something is a successful show, they're putting things in that are relatable, right? Because they don't want to lose their audience.

Sara Emmerson: Yeah.

Guest: And so there's one scene where— I can't think of her name— the manager of the team. I can't think of her name off the top of my head, but the blonde. And she's about to go into this meeting with all of these sort of men who are running their other teams. And she's about to go in, and she looks in the mirror. And when she looks in the mirror, she sees herself as a little girl. And so, she sees herself as that little girl. And then in that moment, like, she sort of reaches down, and she does that sort of breast thing where she's like, ah! You know, like, she sort of reaches up, right? Yeah. And that is such a— Universal feeling, which is why it's in that show as well. When we show up in scary situations, our younger self is who shows up. And so it was such a representative— and you'll see it in movies across the board now. You'll see that sort of commonality of showing up almost like childlike. So these are for— I don't care what position you're in in a company. I work with people. I just had a gentleman sell his company for over $300 million, and he was feeling it. It doesn't matter. Down to somebody who's— it's their very first job, right? And they're just learning how to wait tables. That

the ideas of who shows up when we're afraid is our younger version. Yeah. And if we don't take care of them and parent them in a healthy way, to your point, to see jealousy and be like, it's okay to be jealous. Right? When we parent and we help that inner part of us feel safe, we feel safe taking the next step. So be very mindful as you're growing too, is that it's going to be your inner child that is going to show up. And to be mindful of how are you treating it and how are you letting it know it can be safe to move forward.

Sara Emmerson: Yes, absolutely. And what safety actually is, defining what safety is, because I think sometimes we define safety as nothing's going to go wrong. And everything's gonna be positive and everything's up into the right. And

Guest: yeah,

Sara Emmerson: that's just not true. That's not true safety. And so actually what I love to do is define, okay, what is safety? What is the springboard that I know I'm always gonna be able to come back to and I'm gonna be okay? And recognizing that, do you find that that can be helpful for people too?

Guest: Oh, absolutely. Cuz to your point, safety looks different. And so to take the time to be like, okay, what does feeling safe look like? And sometimes it's just— it's— people always ask, why did I get into psychology? This has been a question since I was in grad school. And the only way that I can explain it is I would always say, I just always felt like I wanted to walk with people in darkness. And just if my flashlight was working at that time, I could point stuff out. Mm-hmm. And if they couldn't look at it and they couldn't see it, or if their flashlight wasn't working, no problem, we'll use mine. And then once theirs starts clicking on, right, then they use theirs, right? And then there becomes sort of more light. And so to me, it's sort of that idea of sometimes we don't even know what being safe feels like.

Sara Emmerson: Mm-hmm.

Guest: But it's being willing to walk in the fear. And so even for yourself, if you don't know what feeling safe looks like, to be able to be like, but it's okay, we'll figure it out, right? There's a statistic, it's actually on all of my pens here too. It's got the number 91%. So 91% of the things that we worry about never happen. 91%. It's up to 91.4%. So 91% of the things we worry about never happen. And when they do, we handle them 79% better than than we thought we would. And so when it talks about sort of safety or taking risks or things like that, understanding that your brain's just trying to point out where a possible failure could be to protect you. Yeah.

Sara Emmerson: It's doing what it was created to do.

Guest: Absolutely. So thanks for telling me I might fail at that. And if I do, I might, right? And so the confidence comes in, but I'm going to be okay. I'm going to be okay. I don't know what that's going to look like, But I'm going to be okay. And so I love your idea of having people understand, what is a safe place to fall? What does that look like? What does that feel like? And then proceed and know you're not going to feel safe doing it, and that's okay.

Sara Emmerson: Yeah. And I think that recognition of knowing that you're not going to feel safe all the time, even when you are. Even when you are. is so important. And I love, love, love that statistic of 91%. 91% of the things that we worry about don't come to pass. Right. And recognizing that, um, it's our job to, to live into the 9%, right? To, to go, to live into the, uh, not live into it out of fear, but to, to go after it In a way that, um, we can strategize. We don't have to live in, in the fear of it always being, uh, catastrophic, so to speak.

Guest: Yeah. Well, and, and to your point earlier, right? What, like, scared and safe are very different. I can be absolutely scared to do something, but I know I'm safe. And so we can typically do things when we feel safe. As long as we start separating those, right? I'm scared, I'm safe. Like those can both be present at the exact same time.

Sara Emmerson: Exactly. And it's scientific that fear and excitement hit in the same place in our brain.

Guest: Yep.

Sara Emmerson: And so identifying which one it is in the, or it can be often both. We can be excited to do something and fearful. You know that I was getting ready to do a, Um, a talk just a few weeks ago and I was really excited about it and really nervous. And I called, uh, my friend and, um, my, what I like to call my friend therapist. Um, when I'm, when I'm in, in those moments, I'm like, Kim, help. And she, you were just so great at talking me through it and, and helping me identify which part is actual real fear, what could actually happen, and what part is, is me just being excited and nervous and what do I need to step into and recognize. Mm-hmm. And so having those safe spaces to do that is so important. So important.

Guest: Yes.

Sara Emmerson: Yeah. Yes. Tell me about a time that you took a risk and it might not have turned out the way that you thought it was going to. Obviously we know about the one on the wall, um, but how you worked through that.

Guest: Um, so one of the things that I've been— it keeps showing up in my life and I keep trying to ignore it because that's, you know, how I roll where it's like, okay, how many times do I need to get, you know, smacked upside the head with an idea, right? And so one of the things was every time I do a presentation and I go somewhere and I do something on sleep or stress or burnout or whatever it is, I have women come up to me And it's typically, you know, I'm 49, it's typically my age women, right? At all sort of all walks of life, if you will. And they come up and they say, well, this is all great. I'm stressed, I'm burnt out, I'm not sleeping, right? Um, but it's because of perimenopause or it's because of menopause. And you and I were just joking about this before it all started, right?

Sara Emmerson: Yeah, before we got on here.

Guest: At this point, they're like, just Like, just accept it. Like, stuff's, you know, stuff's just gonna go downhill from here, which kind of relatable. And so they would come up and they would say, so like, what can I do about it? Right? And so, you know, I would sort of give strategies specific for perimenopause, menopause. And and so then I was they just kept they just kept coming up. And then I was in LA doing a conference, and I literally was thinking about it on this walk. And I always had this idea of calling it Mimosas and Menopause because I felt like if we could all just be in a room together, create community, right? And talk together about sleep and stress and burnout and all those things, it would help. And so I was like, now—

Sara Emmerson: And if you can have a mimosa, it can help too. So there you go.

Guest: And we have them early enough in the morning so it doesn't affect our sleep. So I feel like that helps a lot, right? Win-win-win. And so I was like, now, you know, I was talking myself out of it. I was like, now, like, How are you going to set it up? Where are you going to do it? Right? What are the— and so I'm walking by this side of this building and there's this huge sign and it says mimosas. Now, it was Sunday and I'm sure they just said mimosas, but I was like, okay, universe, let's do this.

Sara Emmerson: Literally, there's a sign. I asked for a sign and there's a literal sign.

Guest: Literally a sign. And so I had no idea how to do it. No clue. I didn't know where I was going to host it. I didn't know who I was inviting. I didn't know how to do any of it. And so— and this was just within the last few months or so. And so I just went on Amazon, bought a whole bunch of tablecloths, like a projector, bought all this stuff, and decided that I was going to just invite people into it, right? Help people understand, right, like that this is specifically for that group, right? Perimenopause and menopause. it was a sleep reset intensive, right? 3 hours, right? And on a room on a Saturday where we can have community, we can ask questions. It was small. It's just going to be 15 women. And I didn't know— I had no idea what it was going to look like, but I just started to build it, right? I just started to get the tablecloths and I just started to print out things that said mimosas and menopause, right? And before you knew it, right, you had 14 women, right? And just the The energy in the room, just seeing them all connect. I have— we started off with pain points. And so I literally have it on my wall over here because we wrote them all down. And so you walk by and you see just a shared pain, right?

Sara Emmerson: Yeah.

Guest: I had no idea what I was going to do. I talked myself out of it probably for 8 to 9 months. And then at some point, I was like, just do it. Just start it. Just start it. Like, just see what happens. And so we did. So we did our first mimosas in menopause. That's so fabulous. And it was so cool. We, we had one of our dietitians come in and she sort of taught us some foods and things like that to help with sleep and our bodies during the stage. I didn't know any of that was going to happen. None of it. So I think it's just an idea of, at least for myself, I don't like to, I don't like to fail ever. Never have. And I also like to know exactly what it looks like before I start. And that's what nips me in the butt every time.

Sara Emmerson: I know that about you. I do know that about you. Yeah.

Guest: It's, you're the one, even in the car, you're like, just darn it. I was like, I don't know what it's gonna be, but you're like, do it.

Sara Emmerson: So what she's referring to is back before Kim started Drift, we, um, got to be on, it was during COVID It was, they had, um, the outdoor ed where normally the kids go away for a couple days, but they came up with this brilliant idea that we should just drive up there every day for outdoor ed because the kids couldn't spend the night. So like you'd have to drive an hour each way each morning. And so Kim and I would, um, were the volunteers and we, um, we drove together. And I've never seen anybody that has as many umbrellas as Dr. Kimberly Lemke, and even ones that like look like ducks and things like that. So she's always very prepared. But that even goes with what she's talking about now. Like, and what I find so often with many of the, uh, incredible high performers that I'm working with is. That people want that clarity. They want that security of knowing the plan before they take the next step. And you're saying that that's something that gets you stuck sometimes too. And I know that it, that because on that ride we started dreaming about what was gonna happen and that was your, your, I don't wanna say excuse, but

Guest: no, solid. I mean, I can come up with excuses like a champion, right? Like, And the problem becomes with an excuse is they're typically valid. Like, most of the excuses I have, right, are not based in like puppy dogs and rainbows and like, great. Like, it's true, right? Like, most of, I think, the things that we're afraid of, right, could happen, right? It's not a catastrophic thing. It's just like, well, what if it doesn't work? What if this happens? What if— Yeah. And so I think honestly, the more reasonable our excuses are, the harder they are to get past because there's an element of truth in them. And so to just be able to push through those, and in the car you're like, you're doing this whether you basically want to or not, right? And then you're like, I'm gonna hold you accountable. And I was like, oh God, I gotta do it, right? Yeah. And that's sort of how Drift came to be, right? It was like, okay, like, if somebody's gonna hold me accountable to this. And again, I think that's what makes you such a powerful coach is your ability to see the excuse, acknowledge it, and also help people move Past it, but without invalidating it. Right? At no point was it like, that's dumb. Or, you know, it was very much so like,

Sara Emmerson: yeah, that could happen, but there's 50% that it could also go really well. Actually, there's 91% that your fear isn't going to happen.

Guest: Absolutely. So I think, you know, for all the people that we work with, it's, it's to help them see that, right? Like, their excuses are valid excuses sometimes, right? Sometimes they're catastrophes, but sometimes it's real. Right? Like, I don't want to fail. Right? The reality is, during that time, during COVID it was right during when I was getting divorced. Right? The thought of starting something new and it not working, and financially, what would that look like? And all those sort of things. It was terrifying. And so the freedom came in, like, I don't have to do it all at once.

Sara Emmerson: Correct.

Guest: And so it was those bite-sized pieces. Really cool visual out there of it's like a ladder, and one ladder has all like these rungs that are really close by, and one has a ladder that the steps are really far between. And, you know, the goal is, is up top. And the person who the first step is so high, even though there's less steps, they never even start. Versus the person who's just taking tiny steps up is actually making their way to their goal quicker. And so for me, that's what that was too, is that those were, those are reasonable excuses. They were solid excuses and they also kept me from taking the first step.

Sara Emmerson: Yeah. And that's so normal.

Guest: So normal.

Sara Emmerson: Right? Especially too, um, when we are only thinking about it ourselves. Right? We, um, I like to tell people often, I'm like, isolation is torture. We actually use it for torture. In prison, right? To put people in isolation, right? But yet we do that to ourselves all the time. We have an idea and then we just think about it and think about it and think about it, and we continue to think about it, and then we think about it some more, and we isolate that idea only to our own brain. And when we do that, it becomes really, really scary. Often it can also be exciting, but we talk ourselves out of So many things. I, I always am thinking about how many incredible ideas are out there, how many companies are, have never gotten, um, started because somebody just talked themselves out of it instead of just putting, once you said, I have an idea, I think I wanna start this company called Drift and I want to help people sleep better. You, you put it out into the world, verbalized it. And then just said, hey, I'm gonna take the first step. I don't know what that's gonna look like. And then you didn't even let the first no be a no, right? You kept

going. But often we talk ourselves out of step 1 because we're afraid of step 20.

Guest: Yes.

Sara Emmerson: But step 20 never, like you said with the 91%, step 20 usually doesn't even happen because step 2, 3, 4, 5 looks different than you thought it would once you took step 1. And so I don't know who's out there today and you're thinking about taking something like that, but I just want to tell you, like, Dr. Lemke is a perfect example of take step one. You, you don't know what's going to happen until you do.

Guest: And, and the other thing too, and I see this all the time, is when we're thinking about all the ways that it's not going to work, that is what's happening. at 9 o'clock at night, 10 o'clock at night, right? That's when Drift became boring because at some point, really figuring out for people, like, how do we shut off our brains at night, right? Mm-hmm. And so what we're thinking about at night are all the failures, all the risks, all that. We're not thinking about that at 9 and 10 AM. We're just doing what we need to be doing. And so one of the biggest things that I get asked about that I present on is how do we turn our brain off at night? Because all the things that we're not doing during the day that are our dreams, the things that we are excited about, the things, the risks we have to take, we're not thinking about it until 10 o'clock at night. And then we're not sleeping. And we're not sleeping because we've terrified ourselves now with, right, the 9%, right? Like, oh my gosh, if I start this and then— And so there is a link between high performers and their sleep because of that, because They're thinking about it at night. They have more that they want from their life, or there's, there's a risk they are scared to take. But we're thinking about it too late at night. Rather than— I tell,

I tell people 2 hours before bedtime, then think about it. Don't think about it at 9 o'clock at night when you shut down the computer, because you're going to terrify yourself, and then you're going to be up all night. And I call it the alarm clock teamwork.

Sara Emmerson: So actually strategize that earlier in the day.

Guest: Yes.

Sara Emmerson: Yes. Plan to think about those fears.

Guest: Yes, absolutely. Have them show up when, when you're awake. I do not do scary movies. Like, you know this about me. Anybody who knows me, like, there is not a chance.

Sara Emmerson: Yeah, no, no, thank you.

Guest: Just went to a scary movie the other day with my friend, and it was a book she had already read, and I saw her doing this, and I was like, if you're doing this and you know what's happening, I am— I refuse to look at the screen, right? Like, I, I am not—

Sara Emmerson: Eyes closed the whole time. Right.

Guest: 100%, right? And so, but when we're doing that, though, and we're scared— if I'm going to watch a scary movie, which I'm really never going to do, but if I'm going to do it, I'm going to do it during the day. I'm going to do it during the day, and I'm going to do it when people are around because it's less scary. And so it's the same thing with our thoughts. The things that we're scared about thinking, think about it during the day when you have people around, when there's light out. When you take a break and you're going to go maybe meet a friend or you're going to go have dinner with the family or whatever it is. So think about the scary things too during the day, schedule in some time and think about it then.

Sara Emmerson: Yeah, that's good. What other tips would you encourage people that are looking to take a risk or looking to start something new or looking to move through a hard transition, that you work with all of those different people, what are the things they could do, um, to try and sleep better? Because you're right, that, that those thoughts steal, rob, and destroy our, our, our sleep at night.

Guest: Yes. I think people forget that it's their brain. People come to me all the time like, well, my brain just— I'm like, but who— it's your brain, right? Like, you get to control it. And we forget that. It's almost like as soon as it starts thinking, we're like, oh man, Like, I had a good run, right? But I'm done now, right?

Sara Emmerson: It's finished now. It's taken over.

Guest: Absolutely. And so just empowering people that it's still your brain. So tell your brain what you want it to think about. And so at night or whenever it is, one of my favorite techniques for high performers, because their brain is always running, is it's called cognitive distraction. And so Basically, think about what you want to think about. Create a storyline in your own head. I love the water. Think about the water or beach. Cognitive shuffling is another one of my favorites. It's basically boring your brain to death. So your brain at night is trying to make connections. That's what it does. It's its job. And so we kind of want to starve it of that so that it would rather actually sleep than deal with you. It's like, well, if she's going to do this technique, like, I'm so bored, I'd rather go to bed. So you pick a word, right? So I don't care what it is— phone, water. So we'll go with phone. So phone, P-H-O-N-E. You start with the letter P and you list all of the words that start with the letter P. So picnic, painting, whatever. Then you move on to H— hello, happy. And then, oh, it's not a rush to get through because at the end of it, you're going to have to pick another one. And basically you're just starving your brain

of anything exciting. And when you starve it of it, it would rather go to bed. And so when you're going to sleep at night, if you have something you're afraid to do, if you have a risk that you want to take, think about it during the day. If it comes up at night, try one of these techniques to just sort of slow that brain down so you can get sleep. And then in the morning, then figure out what your next step is. But that next step at night is typically not one that's going to help us.

Sara Emmerson: That's so good. So good. Thank you. Thank you. I'm gonna do that. Yes. I appreciate it.

Guest: Yeah, it's good.

Sara Emmerson: All right. Well, um, I'm gonna do a little lightning round here with you before we end. So get ready, uh, for some fun questions here, and then we're gonna end with our signature question. But, um, mountains or beach? I think I already know this answer.

Guest: Beach. Can the beach be next to a mountain or?

Sara Emmerson: Yeah, you, yeah, that we, we can do that. Uh, or at least in the same state so you can get there quickly.

Guest: Okay, perfect.

Sara Emmerson: Uh, okay. Uh, burger or pizza?

Guest: Oh, pizza.

Sara Emmerson: Movie or book?

Guest: Oh, hardcore movie any day.

Sara Emmerson: Yeah.

Guest: I think grad school ruined it for me at some point. I'm like, no more reading.

Sara Emmerson: No more, no more reading. Right. Uh, definitely movie. I love that. Um, train or take the train to the city or drive to the city?

Guest: Drive. I like control. I wanna be able to leave when I wanna go, and that train kills me.

Sara Emmerson: I, I hear that. Um, heels or tennis shoes?

Guest: Ooh, I prefer tennis shoes, but I'm usually in heels.

Sara Emmerson: Yeah, I get that. Yeah. I love it. Yes, definitely. And here's our last question, and we ask this to every guest that's on this. Um, what is one risk that you think every single person should take? sometime in their life?

Guest: Ooh. I think the risk to ask yourself and truly listen to yourself, if you ask, am I happy? And listen to the answer. And is there a way that I could be happier? Because I think in that, comes the risk that we may need to take. I think sometimes we think that being happy is like, yeah, I was happy, right? You may have been happy when you were 20, 21, 30, 40, 50, 60, it doesn't matter. But the next day you may not be. And it's okay to ask that question. I think it's a very risky question. Risky. Because I don't think we want to know the answer. Because on the opposite side of that answer might be some serious changes that need to be made. But there's a bravery in asking it and a bravery in listening to it.

Sara Emmerson: So good. So good. Thank you.

Guest: Yes.

Sara Emmerson: Now, people that are listening today are wondering, how do I connect with Dr. Limke? How can I get her to come and speak at my organization? How can they connect with you?

Guest: Well, so you can find me pretty much everywhere on Dr. Kimberly Lemke. So Instagram, LinkedIn, it's D-R-K-I-M-B-E-R-L-Y-L-E-M-K-E. So you can find me on LinkedIn and message me there. On Instagram, email is drkimberlylemke@driftcourse.com. So D-R-I-F-T So feel free to email me as well. And happy to hear from anybody if you have questions on sleep, questions on stress, burnout. If you're menopausal, perimenopausal, listen, if you need a mimosa, you let me know.

Sara Emmerson: Yeah. If you want to host a menopausal mimosa party, call Dr. Lemke. She will help you do that.

Guest: Absolutely.

Sara Emmerson: Well, and to everyone listening, if you know you're ready for more, but you feel unsure about your next step and you don't have anyone to talk to about that, you don't have to figure it out alone. I wanna let you know I'm here to help you and I can help you walk through those steps that we talked about today. You don't have to go to step 20 in your brain or even try to do it, um, by yourself. We can just take step number 1. So if you're wanting to take a step, uh, a brave step, a risk that is keeping you stuck, go to sarahemerson.com and let's talk. That's it. Let's talk. It doesn't have to be any harder than that. That's what Kim and I did. And she is able to now have this company called Drift that she's able to take into organizations and use with her, uh, clients and, and many, many other people. So, um, I would love to have that conversation with you too. Um, Dr. Lemke, any final words?

Guest: Anybody who's listening who's thinking about coaching, I, I've been in a lot of spaces and with a lot of different organizations and a lot of entrepreneurs. And I can tell you Sarah has a way of, and I'm not just saying this cuz you're my friend, cuz you are my friend, but this is, this is from a place of truth. I'm, I'm building Drift the way I'm building Drift because in the car, You basically said, get out of your own way. And I have a doctorate in psychology, and I got news for you. I was in my own way like a champion, right? And so anybody who's, who's thinking about it, I can't recommend you enough, just from your ability to validate with grace and understanding and also encouragement, and at the same time create movement in people's life. And that's, that's a gift you have. So I— Thank you. I second the idea of, of reaching out to you for that.

Sara Emmerson: Well, thank you, friend, and I'm so proud of what you're doing and can't wait to talk with you on the podcast again sometime in the future. I know so many people are gonna get so much, um, out of this. So thanks for being here. Thanks for listening. And until next time, don't forget to continue to ask yourself what you're doing that is a little risky, because that's a good thing. Have a great day, everybody. Bye.

Guest: Bye.